The Sunday Morning Service at Greenbelt 2009 focussed on the stories of the people living in the land called holy – especially the Palestinians living in the Occupied Territories.
The webpage we've built here will give you more resources – where you can go next with these stories. But we'd love to know what you made of the service and the issues it raised. Join the conversation by commenting below.
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September 1st, 2009 at 11:25 am
The Service liturgy & content was well thought out, and using the anointing as a group commitment instead of trying to work out how best to do communion in the light of the current swine flu restrictions worked well. The input from the different contributors was helpful, and the use of other languages and music from Palestinian & Israeli sources was good.
However the overall effect was let down by the hymns. I have no problem with writing new words for old tunes. The words were very appropriate, and would have fitted the tunes fine if they had been played in a way that made them accessible. But our group felt that the band played them as a performance for themselves, and not as an aid to worship. We looked around and saw that people were either struggling to fit the words to the way the music was being played, or had stopped altogether and were just chatting. When you have lots of people from different traditions together using a one-off liturgy then you need to have something in it to make them feel united, and it's singing together that achieves this when it's well led.
It was an opportunity missed.
September 1st, 2009 at 1:30 pm
This was not a christian sunday morning service it was a political platform/statement and had absolutely nothing to worship of God. it was sufficient to make me walk away from the main stage and consider if I should ever attend Greenbelt again. This view was shared by 2 other adults – one of whom was fortunate enough to get in to see Tim Hughes and commented "now that should have been main satge Sunday morning worship".
September 1st, 2009 at 4:52 pm
Great service with a powerful message, well put over. I'm not sure how the 'elbow bump of peace' would go down with the ladies in the back row of the congregation back home – might be interesting to try.
But what a shame about the way the hymn were 'performed'. Again, powerful original words to great welsh tunes but sung in a way that just served to irritate – you couldn't enjoy the singing or concentrate on the words because you were too busy wondering how long the pauses were going to be! Surely the success, simplicity, popularity and power of 'beer and hymns' could be used as an example
September 1st, 2009 at 5:15 pm
I ditto entirely what has been said about the hymns, it was impossible to sing along to. Also it could not be heard very well all the time where we were at the back. But as for people saying it was "too political" – that's greenbelt and that for me is Christianity. These are important world issues and people are suffering because of them. Doing something about it – that's true worship of God.
September 1st, 2009 at 5:40 pm
I totally agree about the hymns. My group gave up and just sang them straight, finishing each verse well before the band, which made us laugh but did not help us to worship. Otherwise – I loved the confession and the creed, as well as the symbolism of the olive seed. I agree that such a diverse gathering should be given familiar hymns and songs to sing together without being made anxious or embarrassed by the leaders. That way we would really worship together in the same way we have been learning an celebrating together throughout the weekend.
September 1st, 2009 at 5:42 pm
I have to agree with Jes and Helen I was completely disappointed with the Sunday Morning Service this year, we actually left half way through which I have never done before. I'm really sorry Greenbelt but – What were you thinking?? I have always raved about the Sunday Morning Service to my friends and family in the past, to me that is what makes Greenbelt – thousands of Christians worshipping God together with one voice! Best bit this year Tim Hughes, worst bit Sunday Morning Service. Please please please change it back.
September 1st, 2009 at 6:59 pm
My friends and I were disappointed with the service. I appreciate the need to think about conflict and pray for peace in countries like Palestine but a whole service on it was perhaps too much. As has been said already this could have been achieved in a seminar. Tim Hughes should definately have been playing, Rob Bell should have spoken and perhaps…you know…mention Jesus once in a while?!?
September 1st, 2009 at 7:09 pm
As you can tell, everybody thinks the same about the Sunday service hymns. The confession, creed etc were fine. Nice to have it a bit different than my church once in a while. I actually like Agents of the future, but they were used in the totally wrong place. The sound they create is fantastic but not right for leading worship when the words and musical structure is changed.
One thing GB- Keep it simple. Why do you think Beer and hymns is so popular (despite the obvious answer of the alcohol) is that its piano+people+songs. and thats it.
Next year strip it down, go right to the basics of worship and unity together as christians- isnt that what greenbelt tries to do anyway?
September 1st, 2009 at 7:09 pm
I agree with many of the above comments, although not those about the political nature of the message – engaging with the big political issues of the day is what we as Christians should be doing. However, the communion service has for me been the highlight of previous Greenbelts and this year it wasn't. The elbow bumping and anointing were interesting but helping each other to the bread and the wine is what usually brings people of all denominations together in unity. I suppose we can blame swine flu for denying us this. As for the hymns, new words are fine and new rhythms are fine but not both together. Without in any way wishing to advocate slavish adherence to ritual and tradition, it is the shared familiarity of most of the elements of the Sunday morning service that make it work. YFriday and Tim Hughes were great by the way and we were singing along to their worship songs in the car on the way home.
September 1st, 2009 at 7:15 pm
I have to echo a great deal of what was said above. The music was abysmal in that it made it impossible to join in singing worship to God. Using well-known tunes with different words is fantastic – but I felt utterly disempowered by the music, as did the entire group of about 20 that I was with. The net effect on us was a combination of frustration and disbelief. I would also agree that the service was too politicised. I'm not for one moment arguing that worship should not be political – I don't think that it can be anything BUT political – but if it is meant to be worship of God, we need to worship God, not Palestine, not our liturgical inventiveness or our inclusivity. I love Greenbelt because it provides so many opportunities for politics and performance and calls for social justice. But the right focus for the service was utterly lost, in my opinion. GB needs to stop trying to be so clever, inclusive, right-on and innovative, and simplify it all a bit. Let's not be so focussed on other (though absolutely crucial) issues that in worship, we forget God and the Christian faith.
September 1st, 2009 at 8:06 pm
I am afraid I have to agree with Simon. Most of my group hated the worship. The hymns were so bad that they outweighed the good liturgy. And I also agree about the lack of Jesus in the worship. I've got no problems with political worship (If I did I wouldn't be a GB Angel) but Jesus needs to get a look in. We hope to use a lot of the material, including the hymns, but with those tunes played straight on the organ or piano. Could we have Andy Flannegan next year please? Or John Bell?? Longer and better thought out reply to follow by email with comments about other aspects….
September 1st, 2009 at 8:25 pm
Has this blog been hijacked by the evangelist anglican conservative party? Where you all somewhere else with your fingers stuck in your ears? Where you listening and being open to what was being said, or were you all too busy criticising before you gave it all a chance. The message was simple. Palestinians are humans too. These are stories and songs from that place, please stand with us. I suspect some of you are supporters of the Zionist structure that exists in Israel Palestine currently, and the moderator of this forum should look at the legitimacy of the critical posts and the structured (pre-organised?), and negative way that they are trying to diss what was THE most important and relevant and wonderful service I have ever been present at in over 20 years coming to the festival. VIVA PALESTINA!
September 1st, 2009 at 9:04 pm
I found the morning service moving and challenging. Jesus lived in an occupied land and a fuller understanding of the impact of occupation on a people brings the gospel stories to life. I missed sharing communion and, as the godly play story has it 'when you taste this bread you taste freedom', wonder if sharing the bread as Jesus and his followers did would have brought home the theme of the service. Having said that we found the annointing a good way of sharing with others which our five year old loved. He is also excited about the prospect of growing an olive tree. The young people in our group did engage with the worship, were challenged by it and later went to hear Sami Awad and Jeff Halper speak because the service made them want to find out more.
It would have been helpful to have the words of the readings printed in English as well as Hebrew and Arabic for those not so familiar with the bible stories, but hearing the bible readings in other languages brought home the worldwide nature of the church.
The hymns reduced our group to frustrated laughter and had the singing been more accessible it may have helped people to engage with something a little more challenging than normal Sunday fare. Too much worship is comfortable. We are called to love God with our heart, soul, strength and mind and the challenges offered in this service do give us a real opportunity to use our strength and our minds in God's service.
Thank you to all those who worked so hard to enable this service to take place, especially given the extra pressures created by the (not entirely necessary) panic over swine flu.
September 1st, 2009 at 9:19 pm
I took my family to the communion (forced them) as I wanted us to have at least one "together" experience at the festival and believe whole heartedly in the family worshipping together. After the first "hymn" my youngest aged 10 left with his friend. My two teenagers stayed under sufference saying they would "die" – at which I said we would at least all die together! They did find the annointing very significant and fully engaged with this as did those around us – so that was a positive. But I have to agree with many comments above – a missed opportunity. I am not anglican or conservative and manage to avoid labels as much as possible (bigJohn note!)and have worshipped in many contexts and denominations over the years, but for me the service was given over to a political cause. Having lived and worked in South Africa during the days of the struggle for justice I believe strongly that our worship should not just be something that hides us from the real issues around (where it is just a nice time for me and Jesus) but that our worship should engage us with a God who is passionate about justice and righteousness. It should bring us into an encounter with an awesome God who sends us out to continue to live lives of worship in the world. Unfortunately the encounter with God was missing from the service on Sunday.
The readings in two languages was good but should have had the English translation as it assumed everyone would know the Scriptures referred to. The songs – dire dirges – farcical. What's wrong with modern songs that are not hymns but that are well known across the denominations and traditions?(The best song was by the lady who got us all joining in). The three stories would have been so much better if they hadn't been read to us – let people tell their stories with passion not with a script! Those stories could have touched our hearts and had a huge impact…but they didn't! The liturgy was well thought out and there were some beautiful parts – but again delivered as a dirge. As for being inclusive… why couldn't it have included a few different styles from the rest of the festival – Love and JOY gospel choir, something celtic, Tim Hughes (who incidentally led some amazing worship with humility and passion and focussed us on Jesus as well as the work he has called us to do!), Fischy music etc. Come on Greenbelt, I know from experience that it is a really difficult thing to organise a communion service for such a diverse group of people, but surely by now you should be getting it right? For something that is a cutting edge, challenging festival with hardly a dull moment, the communion service lets you down – we have great fun when Athlete perform, we jump up and down and scream at a concert, we use visuals and arts in all the other venues, but when it comes to a uniting communion service we become somber and "churchy". Where is the JOY?
September 1st, 2009 at 9:22 pm
I'm neither conservative nor Anglican, but I have to agree with alot of what has been said. I'm very sympathetic to the overall theme of the service, the liturgy was well thought out and although the 'elbow bump' didn't really work it was a good try. The annointing could have been wonderful, but I'm afraid my irritation at the music got the better of me. I assume that that those hymn tunes were chosen because they'd be known by almost everyone. I'm glad to listen to a performance, but when I'm invited to join in singing a hymn it would be nice to be enabled to do that. Congregational singing is an important part of worship for me and I'm afraid I felt completely excluded on Sunday morning.
September 1st, 2009 at 9:30 pm
I had no problem with any "political" content in the service: what Christian could object to highlighting the plight of the Palestinians.
3 wonderful Welsh hymn tunes were used: by all means provide new words: I have no problem with this.
However was this intended as a Christian service or a show-case? If it was intended as a service it was a shambles. Despite the expensive? resource-consuming booklet, it was difficult to follow what was going on. Keep it simple! Keep the content linear (i.e. not referring back and forth in the booklet for content). We could not sing hymns when the tempo and indeed tune seemed to be a moving target.
I am reluctant to crticise the alternatives to handshakes for sharing the peace and to sharing bread and wine: although not convinced that the alternatives were significantly "safer" those with the burden of organising deserve our support for a valiant attempt to respond appropriately.
September 1st, 2009 at 9:33 pm
We have become Greenbelters in recent years and absolutley love the festival and everything it stands for but we were disappointed with the Sunday service. The theme and challenge it delivered was good, the liturgy thoughtful
(although a lack of Christ referance was a little alarming), and those who led did so really well but the musical element was cringeworthy and sadly left all our group feeling flat and disappointed….please please next year can't we just enjoy well known songs and hymns that fit the theme and serve as a catylst for worship we can all enter into? (and I can asure fellow bloggers that I am not a memember of any Zionistic structure or right wing evangelical group…. )
September 1st, 2009 at 9:40 pm
Unfortunately all our group at GB this year also were very disappointed to say the least – our token atheist said after the first hymn 'that was very self-indulgent' – I'm sure the group are great in concert – but this was congregational worship NOT a concert. Also, I'm sure God knows lots about the Middle East – it felt like we were talking at him and I felt very little sense of worship about the whole event. For many people, GB is their only 'church' all year and they missed out this year – we noticed how full beer & hymns was later that afternoon even though the weather wasn't great.
September 2nd, 2009 at 1:10 am
So many missed opportunities, I'm sorry to say – musically and also Gospel related. Jesus should have been the unifying focus not the Palestinian people (despite the fact that I agree with and actually liked that aspect of the service).
And trying to be too trendy for its own good, I fear… GB tends to get the music wrong at Sunday Worship more often than not, and really, it's not hard to get it right!
Elbow bumps instead of physical contact was a little too precious, perhaps, and pandering to a media-stoked hysteria that most people simply don't share.
Though anointing with the Palestinian oil was very significant and a lovely moment.
A deeper simplicity of shared moments in God's presence, with our eyes on Jesus and listening to the Spirit are what we should maybe be aiming for…
September 2nd, 2009 at 2:26 am
I agree with almost all of the previous comments. This was our first Greenbelt and we were really looking forward to the Sunday Morning Service. However, as far as the worship was concerned, my family which includes 3 in their 20s,(so not all old fogeys) gave up after the first hymn. The group leading the worship seemed to be on something of an ego-trip – not uncommon among worship groups I'm sorry to say who don't seem to realise there is a difference between putting on a performance and leading worship – the latter requires a degree of self-effacing and humility which is the antithesis of performing. In this case it didn't seem to have occurred to the group that lengthy pauses and random phrasing in well-known hymn tunes interspersed with what seemed to us at the back of the field like incomprehensible and totally inappropriate wailing, would not assist in helping the congregation to join in the worship – which was after all their job.
Fortunately we had the sheer joy of Beer and Hymns – and it wasn't down to the beer – to offset this. My 22-year old daughter thought it was one of the best bits of the festival and it was noticeable that a lot of the people taking part were under 30
September 2nd, 2009 at 7:58 am
I have been coming to Greenbelt since its earliest days. Over the years there has been much to love about it. In these more recent years there have been great challenges and it is a tribute to the Trustees that it is going now. Greenbelt has always had a subversive edge, but I wonder whether there is a tendency towards subversive for subversive's sake rather than allowing Christian gospel to guide where and how to be subversive. I think this is becoming the position for Sunday mornings. I have no problem with political message or creativity, but a very basic element of worship is that people must find entry points into it. This year (again) these were few and far between. Indeed much that was offered in good faith as worship just served to confuse and make people perplexed. Congegational singing is different to performance based music and song. Please make up you mind which you want. The use of a different tongue can be creative, but not when a translation is not offered so the vast majority can also know what is going on. I agree whith so many of the comments above about how we missed an opportunity. People around me were just confused and battling to take part in things that seem to have been designed to keep them out. I think those who are involved in shaping the worship liturgy are making it very hard work for themselves and those attending. As others have said, Sunday morning Communion was a highlight and a talking point throughout the year – not any more I'm afraid.
September 2nd, 2009 at 8:15 am
So it seems that there's agreement from the commenters that the music wasn't particularly to their taste.
I quite enjoyed it.
I loved their enthusiasm, involvement of children & the glove puppets rocked.
I must confess that I'm a little concerned, like BigJohn, about the almost coordinated way these comments have happened.
The blog has been going for a while & there's been a smattering of comments and all of a sudden 20 people comment on one post. If you're going to come back for future posts, that's great but I hope it's not just one person changing their name.
September 2nd, 2009 at 9:20 am
This was my first GB and I loved it and can't wait to go back, which is why I'm taking the time to post the following:
The only lowpoint (and it was a big one) was the Sunday service. It felt as if this was designed to exclude anyone even a sliver to the left of the more-liberal-than-thou service organisers (including me, and given I loved the first Gene Robinson talk I'm not going to win any 'evangelical of the year' awards). I don't think I was the only one gave the 'creed' a miss.
And the service was primarily about Palestine and only very, very tangentially about God. The festival organisers had a whole four days to raise awareness of the issue without turning the one hour when we all get together to worship into a protest rally. The singing was pretty ropey, though given the words we had to work with that wasn't surprising (the second hymn was like singing a 'Marxism Today' editorial set to music). The group we were sitting with didn't take the service at all seriously. and almost no one I've chatted to since liked it or got anything out of it.
I enjoyed GB partly because it was more theologically diverse than I expected. Anything which gets Gene Robinson and the Holy Trinity Brompton worship team within a hundred miles of each other has to be doing something right. However the Sunday service suggests that the GB organisers don't value that diversity and would rather retreat into an ultra-liberal ghetto.
September 2nd, 2009 at 9:30 am
Phew it isn't just me. I thought the service was appalling and sadly, have felt the same over the past few years. I recall one service about 4 years ago when we sang "Oh Happy Day" and we experienced a true sense of unity among Christians of all backgrounds, leanings, theology and were able to worship God. Recently and particularly this Sunday, it has been a morning of self-indulgence for those on stage. The sound system isn't good enough to hear what's being said, even if we're unlikely to understand it anyway; the musicians had clearly not practised and seemed intent on making us feel like idiots because we couldn't follow the rhythm (I threw my service sheet down in rage). As someone previously has said, keep it simple, look at beer and hymns and why it's so popular. Yes of course talk about Palestine, but don't patronise Palestinians and the rest of us by attempting to be over-interesting, over-radical. Thank goddness I was able to worship in true authenticity in Fishy Music, with my kids later that day.
I adore Greenbelt but the service was, yet again, awful.
September 2nd, 2009 at 10:30 am
Thought that the Sunday morning service was fantastic, the fact that Greenbelt has decided to come out of the closet and really put its weight behind a single issue like this, justice for all in Israel Palestine (and beyond!) is probably to some middle class English Songs of Praise happy clappers like a slap across the face. Thank God for Greenbelt.
September 2nd, 2009 at 10:52 am
Agreed with the poster re: service was fantastic, and probably is going to upset quite a few people with its single issue protaganistic approach this year. Will be interesting to see how the festival organisers deal with the barrage of complaints, and how do they deem what is a genuine complaint and what is a targetted attack by an individual or small group of people sending in many complaints under different names and guises, 'trolls' in forum-speak you might call them.
I liked the raggle taggle music too, very messy, fittd well with the IP theme, a refreshing change from the overly-polished perfection of other "praise' style worship events. i hope Greenbelt doesn't get cold feet and sticks with the campaign that this Service helped to introduce, Just Peace – http://www.greenbelt.org.uk/campaign
September 2nd, 2009 at 11:25 am
Ok loved the service. Missed communion but very reluctantly agree that was the right decision given levels of paranoia. I applaud the political edge to the service,it was always going to step on some toes but Greenbelt has the guts to take a stand. Liturgy and hymns great and service seemed stripped down and simpler than previous years which was good. Choice of band was one bit that went wrong, way they did the songs didn't overly encourage communal singing but enough folks have already said that,
September 2nd, 2009 at 11:41 am
Well i agree with all the comments about the Sunday Service. I liked the theme, I liked the presentations, maybe the readings could have been printed in English too. BUT…yet again, awful awful music. I loved the idea of new words to old tunes, but why oh why cant we have something that everyone can join in with and enjoy.It's been like this for the last few years. Beer and hymns gets packed out, and felt much more like an act of worship than the service. C'mon guys, it's not rocket science! My enthusiasm for the service has been waning over the years simply because of the music.Other than that,Greenbelt was fantastic
September 2nd, 2009 at 11:43 am
Oh dear.
What happened on Sunday morning was mystifying, irritating and ultimately a missed opportunity.
The basic idea of Songs, Signs and Stories sort of worked for me but it didn't feel much like worship. Towards the end of the service I found it difficult to get into making an "act of commitment" involving olive seeds, given what had gone on before.
Here were 15000 people sitting in a field, most of whom knew how to sing together. A few, on the stage did not, or maybe couldn't see why they should.
New words to familiar hymn tunes are ok, but what is wrong with singing just one hymn which everyone knows? Amazing Grace in Centaur after Tim Hughes on Monday afternoon was, well, amazing – and hints at what might have been on Sunday morning.
Readings in other languages are great. The lack of an English translation was puzzling and made the readings inaccessible to those of us who do not memorise their bible for whatever reason.
It is difficult to hear when sat in the midst of a big crowd outdoors, no matter how good a PA there is so please print the things we are supposed to join in with (there was no shortage of space in the booklet). My kids joined in Reem Kelani's song by singing "boogie oranges". I wonder what that meant?
I think Jesus might have been mentioned once or twice, but I think they got away with it.
So how about including everyone by keeping it simple on Sunday morning next year?
Much love to all at Greenbelt.
September 2nd, 2009 at 11:49 am
Just to clarify – the James Stewart who commented above is not the James Stewart who works on the GB website.
September 2nd, 2009 at 12:09 pm
Came back to Greenbelt with my two kids after a break, first Greenbelt in 1986. The Sunday Service was let down by the way the singing was done, which didn't allow people to join in easily, and the lack of mentioning Jesus. Not a problem with being on the issue of Palestine, but how about a Palestinian follower of Jesus talking about what peace making means when you are viewed with suspicion by many Arabs and Jews. I would think that Andy Flanagan with his impeccably non-conservative credentials, his ability to use the best of worship songs and his gift of worship leading would be a good choice in future years.
No I am not a Conservative (I am a Christian Socialist) yes I am an Evangelical but lets not get tribal… Greenbelt's Sunday needs to both comfort and disturb all of us at some point, otherwise it wouldn't be true to the spirit of the festival.
September 2nd, 2009 at 12:21 pm
The service had a powerful message: people from different backgrounds standing together for peace in Palestine. This engagement with the world is something great about Greenbelt.
The liturgy and new words for familiar songs were fine. I liked the symbolism of the oil as an alternative to communion, and the elbow bump as a sign of peace.
I have to agree with many of the critical comments above: the people on the stage who thought it would be funny to sing in a different rhythm to everyone else, the bible readings without translation, and the great speakers forced to read from the service sheet instead of speak.
Thank you for the 'Take an Olive Seed' idea, and for making worship real. But please make the service simple enough that we can worship together next year!
September 2nd, 2009 at 2:10 pm
I thought the Sunday morning service was awful. To be honest with you from about half way through I wasn't even sure that I was at a Christian service. The subject was one for seminars, not one for a Sunday morning service which everyone is supposed to partake in and relate to. It was a white middle class middle aged hippyfest. I took 10 teenagers with me. There was nothing for them. I think that the organisers must be extremely out of touch with what young people think about. There were a few children with us – again, no songs for children, no talk that they could understand, and I had 2 atheist friends who left half way through. What a shame that they didn't learn anything about the gospel. What a shame that they couldn't even hear or read a bible reading in a language that they understood. What on earth were the organisers thinking?!! The only person i know who could follow the readings was my Mum. We are not all, like her, biblical scholars.
Why can't we have a good speaker at the Sunday morning service since there are so many on site? I would have thought the organisers would have been spoilt for choice for brilliant speakers! A real wasted opportunity when so many people have gathered together to learn about God, and dare I say more specifically, the good news of Jesus.
And before I hear cries of "Conservative anglican!" I am a very left wing, liberal, feminist Methodist. Not that we should have to give our credentials to have an opinion.
Please, as others have said, can we have a simpler service, at least some hymns and songs that we know, with something for children and teenagers and a good gospel talk for people who are trying going to a service for the first time in their lives.
I absolutely love Greenbelt and have been every year since 1983. I had a great weekend, but what a shame that the bit that should have been the highlight was so diabolical.
September 2nd, 2009 at 2:37 pm
I went away very disappointed with the service sunday morning, most of it we could not hear, hymns were hopeless to follow so people gave up and chatted instead. felt no connection to god in the whole service, i took someone for the first time and they went away feeling very dejected.
September 2nd, 2009 at 2:43 pm
I completely agree with the above comments as regards the distracting hymn arrangements etc. I'm sure they were aiming for inclusivity but unfortunately it backfired into exclusivity. I'm just relieved that my teenage sons joined the members of our party who always go swimming instead(re nice showers)as it is felt that the Sunday Service has become too contrived and overworked in recent years.
As the 'pauses' were joked about in Last Orders I'm sure the organisers will be at pains to remedy this for next year.
September 2nd, 2009 at 3:55 pm
I cannot believe some people are saying this is some sort of co-ordinated attack by conservative evangelicals.
The reason there is so much criticism is because it was a terrible service. Deal with it.
I also find it offensive to be labelled a Zionist, as I am passionate about justice for Palestinians, but I also want to see the Christian gospel proclaimed (I realise the two are not necessarily mutually exclusive). On this occasion there was too much empahsis on Palestine.
I think the Greenbelt powers that be must accept that many people want to see a service which promotes Jesus Christ, with a sermon from the Bible, a time of praise.
This service is a great opportunity to reach out to the many non-Christians or searchers who come to the festival, and was missed this year.
September 2nd, 2009 at 4:13 pm
I'm a bit mystified by conspiracy theorists claiming that there's some kind of 'co-ordinated' attack going on, and by the underlying attitude that no one an inch less liberal than the organisers has a right to comment (what an advertisement for inclusivity). Get real. I'm left-liberal and pro-LGBT inclusion. I just don't want to sit through a self-indulgent, hyper-politicised liturgical trainwreck.
September 2nd, 2009 at 4:26 pm
Are we not in danger of fogetting what a worshipping community should be all about? For a start a bit of tolerance and forgiveness should be in the mix…In other words, if we think it is a terrible service, live with it, if we were moved (as I was) by the international 'connections' then it's a bonus!
Many of the GB services have been marred by issues with the music, however I imagine the early church spiritual song singing was not without some falters every so often… there is an easy solution to the music, keep it simple and familiar, just like Beer and Hymns.
GB feels like one huge great service to me anyway, so much is fantastic… go on, smile, everyone :-)
September 2nd, 2009 at 5:17 pm
Sunday Worship
Good theme imaginatively done but……
Three great welsh hymns tunes we all wanted to sing.
Just like Beer and hymns we were really up for it.
Then the music stops and starts and we are frustrated. It’s not clever, it’s annoying, and all around us people (and we) were laughing
Sadly the moment of worship was then lost, such a shame.
Please learn from Beer & Hymns and let us sing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Otherwise loved GB09
September 2nd, 2009 at 5:17 pm
I really think the organisers of the service failed to grasp what is for me one of the best factors about Greenbelt. Where else in the world could you have an event that brings together people from so many different walks of life – worship led by everyone from Tim Hughes to the Russian Orthodox; speakers as diverse as Alistair McGrath, Gene Robinson, John Bell, Pete Rollins, to name but a few; and attendees from all major denominations, evangelical, liberal, and everything in between. This is Greenbelt's great strength, and if the Sunday morning is really to be an occasion to bring all those people together it needs to meet them somewhere in the middle. I am not naive – I realise that to put together a service that appeals to all those groups is not easy, but it doesn't seem like there was even any attempt to do so this year. Sadly I, like many others, will be forced to opt out of the Sunday morning service in future years in order to find somewhere to worship where Jesus is glorified, and the glorious message of new life in him is proclaimed – unfortunately this will reduce still further any concept of the Sunday service being a gathering of all Greenbelters, a concept which should be one of the greatest strengths of the festival.
September 2nd, 2009 at 5:19 pm
P.S. The atmosphere of worship at beer and hymns was infinitely more enthusiastic, reverent, and Christ-centered than anything on the Sunday morning – to stand amongst over 1000 people singing their hearts out to God, truly the highlight of the weekend.
September 2nd, 2009 at 5:55 pm
Unfortunately I agree with many of the comments above. It must surely be fairly easy to find a good worship band that can ENABLE worship rather than completely disable it? I was sad that the gospel and reading were not in English, and if read in Hebrew then a translation or re reading it in English could have been very powerful.(Especially given that the "voices" were printed on the sheet although read in English too). Other worship like Tim Hughes, which agreed may not be everyones taste, could have been in the main stage which had plenty of free slots and enable all to attend. Beer and hymns too, could be in a bigger venue as are popular but only enable a tiny proportion of peopl to attend.
On a more positive note, I thank you for the amazing experience of worshipping with so many people I find that so uplifting, the great words of the hymns and other liturgy, for linking much of what we had heard in talks etc into worship and for the Olive seed, which has so many connecting images. I look forward to seeing it grow!
Most of all thank you for a fantastic Greenbelt. Overall the variety, organisation and the way all of our needs were met was just brilliant. Im hungry for next year already…..
September 2nd, 2009 at 6:16 pm
sadly some of the comments above have been caused by the high priests of music who as so often happens to those who think they are more important than the congregation forget what they are there for. the hymns chosen were great ones with good thoughts and worship contained in them sadly the idots ruined it. Some of you who felt that you did not recieve good opotunities for worship may have done so had the tunes been played properly and with gusto.This group obviously considered themselves as more important than the congregation and had any body done that in a service i was leading i would have asked them to stop and play properly.
September 2nd, 2009 at 6:48 pm
Well, seems we have quite a to-do on our hands here.
First up, I would like to reiterate my statement that in my opinion, a lot of the comments here are by a single person, or small group of individuals, posting under different guises – i.e signing in and pretending to be a majority voice of negativity towards the service, and its aims, or to promote their own agenda maybe in the hope that they will make it appear that is the popular choice or way to go. Its not for me to prove or disprove that, I have asked the moderators if they can check all posts and sources and for them to decide that they have evidence that this is the case or not. Its very fishy.
I am not saying that every critical post here is part of a mass conspiracy, because with all clever troll posts (as I believe some of these earlier posts to be), they tend to rouse the negativity that they are intent on raising, and seem to have succeeded in bringing out in the main – criticism from you genuine greenbelt folk, and managed to get that vibe on a roll.
Agents of Future – listen to them on a recent Greenbelt podcast, and what they have to say about criticism and critical voices and opinions, and how we maybe should be setting those to one side when, as they try to do, come together in an act of worship. They set out to try to promote something they call 'mass inclusivity' – maybe they didn't quite achieve that, for whatever reason, but I applaud the decision in choosing them for this service house band, it was risky, and I didn't find myself singing along much either, but I did hum and sway, which is more than any other service has managed to get me to do.
I am reminded of something that Mike Yaconelli once said at greenbelt, about when he moved to a new church as its' pastor. It was a small church, with a regular congregation of maybe 30-40 or so. Something like 2 years later, he stated how proud he was to have built that number up to around 8 (eight) people…..
The ones that had come along to that church previously just because that's what you do when you are a Christian, in an unthinking and 'don't challenge me with any new ideas or ask me to actually engage or participate' kind of fashion had long disappeared, and what he was left with was people who actually wanted to be there. Broken people with souls they were not afraid to expose, and be exposed to something else outside the 'norm'.
Criticism is easy. It can be hurtful. It can destroy something before it even germinates.
Listening and laying criticism aside is not easy. It requires and act of will, and surely, this is what we need to do here.
For those olive seeds, and the symbolism they are meant to share with us, for the campaign that this landmark service has begun, Just Peace.
What we are faced with here is a challenge.
The challenge is to get over ourselves, and our safe sunday morning communion service where everything is all happy clappy and hunky dory where we space out and raise our hands and sing Hallelyah. Sure, there is a place for all that.
And if this campaign succeeds, I will be at the very front of the queue, on my knees with arms outstretched and head bowed at the place where that Separation Wall used to stand.
Then and only then.
September 2nd, 2009 at 7:16 pm
I was for the second year in a row dissappointed with the Sunday service. Reading through the service booklet beforehand it looked promising new words but very familiar tunes should work well as you don't have to think about the tunes and can just focus on the words. How wrong i was.
A member of my group suggested and i think she may be right that the pauses were deliberate to reflect the theme of the long now, and this would have been clever had it worked. However after it clearly nopt working during the 1st hymn the reason for having the pauses (if indeed there was one) should have been explained and the worship leaders should have made ti very clear when the pauses would be and when to come back in, or my perfered option realised that it was not helping people to worship and reverted to plan B and sung the tunes properly for the 2nd two songs. There was not worship leading of facilitating at he service but what felt more like a performance. It left me very frustrated. as for teh elbow bump of peace i was frustrated at the stupidity and the taking the "threat" of swine flu too far, I spent the weekend sitting, queing etc. in close proximaty to hundreds of people with some degree of calculated risk of catching flu (if you don't want any risk of catching it stay at home alone for the next few months)would shaking hands or heaven forbid hugging people really increase my risk that much? I was disappointed at not having communion but accept that this may have caused concerns (there would have been ways to do it using individual cups but ok that may have been too much for such a large group). The anointing was a good idea but i'm afraid by that point i was not really in a mood for worship anymore.
The lack of sermon did not really bother me, but i agree that the bible verses should nave been printed in the order of service so people could follow them.
Fortunately my Greenbelt experience was improved by a wonderfully moving service led by Andy Flannigan and messy communion were we shared bread (after alchol gelling our hands of course!)
On a positive note was was pleased to see that the communion service had been move back to its usual am slot.
September 2nd, 2009 at 7:26 pm
This was my first Greenbelt and I was there with my husband, two teenage sons and my two daughters aged 5 and 8. Worship is a time when we all feel united in loving, praising and being in awe of our creator and responding to His presence….so we were really excited at the prospect of doing this with 15,000 other people for the first time ever.
We were mystified at the service to be honest -yes there were elements of it that were moving and as Christians of course we are concerned with injustice and we do not go around oblivious to the plight of others in the world, singing our happy clappy songs – we pray, we act but we need to remember and acknowledge that Jesus is the centre. Nothing is impossible with Him. Jesus is the one uniting Christians of different backgrounds, denominations and political slants and so I was startled at the lack of worship of Him. Maybe it is not so much that we couldn't be united in song – I wholeheartedly agree that the hymns were not the best choice or played particularly well etc – but that this was called a worship service and we didn't worship. We were not called on to reflect on grace, God's glory, his holiness,his faithfulness and mercy- in the words of the song – worship is about bringing more than a song – it's all about you it's all about you Jesus.
We left the service just a little deflated, a feeling that it was not a service for worship, an anti climax for what I expected (perhaps wrongly) to be a time where I would be aware of the Holy spirit moving among His people, a unification, a fellowship.
It hasn't put me off going to Greenbelt again – we'll be back after all we can worship any time any place – but I do wonder whether the service would have put some seekers on the wrong track and I agree it may have been a missed opportunity -however I bow to the authority of Christ and assuming that the organisers prayed and were led by the spirit when planning, preparing for and delivering the message on Sunday then I can but accept that they knew what they were doing – better than me!
I am a bit baffled by the comments about organised dissent and conservative Anglicans. I am new to pigeon holing and labelling Christians in this way. We must find unity in these times and be led through prayer by the Great I Am, testing things by the fruit if we are unsure and by the word, not by values and concepts promoted by our common enemy.
A big thank you to the organisers of the festival and the army of volunteers that make it all possible. God bless you, keep you and guide you through to the next time.
September 2nd, 2009 at 7:37 pm
I thought the service was a breath of fresh air, actually relevant to the times we live in and bringing us all together to think about the wider message of christianity and the how we can live the life jesus did, bringing justice and equality to all people.
i agree that the songs were a bit hard to follow, but i thought that reem kelani was absolutely brilliant.
We dont come to greenbelt for a sunday service we could get at church, we come to be challenged and to reevaluate how we live our lives for the 361 days we are not at greenbelt.
I hope that the message of justice for the palestinian people will stay with those who were touched by the service and spur them on to work hard for the justice those people so need.
September 2nd, 2009 at 8:04 pm
Big John,
On the subject of conspiracy theories, I was intrigued to find that clicking on "David Dubal" (comment no. 25) leads me to the same Big John blog as clicking on "Big John" (comment no. 12), even though "David Dubal" and "Big John" are apparently different people. And "Dubal" does sound a bit like "double". I'm intrigued ;-)
Fascinating discussion by the way…
September 2nd, 2009 at 8:18 pm
Thanks for the analysis bigjohn.
For the record, I had an amazing encounter with God on Sunday. Being impossible-to-sing-along-with really helped me to meet God in the music … of Miles Davis' "Kind of Blue".
Am I part of a coordinated attack, or a troll-follower? No. Was the "Sunday Service" worship? For some, yes.
There were numerous other times during GB that were worshipful … and numerous other times during GB during which we could engage with politics and social inclusion.
Sure, I need forgiveness for shifting my focus away from God on Sunday morning. Sadly it seems that I, and many others, are so easily distracted that we need some help from the service organisers to stay focused.
Perhaps the "Sunday Service" was aimed at 'mass inclusivity'. Many folk seem unable to see how it aimed people toward Christ.
We must engage in difficult politics. We must look for God's answers, amid human ideas. Whether the GB "Sunday Service" is the time and place for this is for the organisers' to know.
This bear-of-very-little-brain is starting to think that 'mass inclusivity' is for the GB intelligentsia. Perhaps I should retreat to the camp-site, with a Bible, some bread, some wine and the community of fellow believers that for one weekend each August:
- includes me in their lives
- challenges me with their politics
- teaches, trains, rebukes, encourages and inspires me
This is my church.
September 2nd, 2009 at 8:21 pm
hi jennifer – yes, hands up, that is a friend i am staying with and they posted their comments using my macbook, looks like they left the default website link (mine). Well spotted. Now if everyone else would like to link to their own website it would be nice to see who we all are.
September 2nd, 2009 at 10:50 pm
Overall, the service worked well I think. Its aim was to be inclusive and wide-ranging, and attempt to appeal to many, and I think it did that. Some parts of it were not my cup of tea, but that's fair enough.
I will say though that the hymns were, frankly, murdered. As others have said, three great well-known Welsh melodies were turned into something completely unsingable; I fully agree with Jenny Humphreys' very first comment here. Please don't make the same mistake again, Greenbelt!
September 2nd, 2009 at 11:45 pm
At the Monday night Last Orders, there were quite a few references to the music from the Sunday Service – not complimentary at all – and judging by the response from the crowd in there, they all seemed to be in agreement, so I don't really buy into this idea that it's one or two people who didn't like it posting on here with multiple accounts.
September 2nd, 2009 at 11:51 pm
For the most part I liked the service. The liturgy was fine (although as someone said to me afterwards, the Lord's Prayer would have been a welcome addition), the anointing with oil was a special moment and the Elbow Bump of Peace was an inspired mix of lunacy, necessity and great good humour. I didn't find any problem with the Palestinian angle, it's not what I would have done but who wants to go to a service at Greenbelt that's the same as the one you go to every week?
The song 'God of Peace and Justice' was great, a time of quiet and reflection that was thoughtfully led so that it was easy to join in.
And that was my problem with the hymns (yes, again). If there are going to be hymns that we all join in with, they need to be singable. I take bigjohn's point about criticism, but I don't think Agents of Future were the right group to be leading the singing of the hymns – to have used them elsewhere in the service may have been a good idea. The pauses were frustrating but with a strong lead this could have been overcome, but the lead singer wasn't always audible, and the lengths of the pauses were occasionally different from verse to verse. I'm all for radical thinking (and am neither evangelical nor anglican nor conservative!) but I do agree that this was an opportunity missed.
A shame, because this has often been the weak part of the Sunday service in the past and it would be good for it to be easier to join in. It's just this one important part which doesn't seem to work: the hymns themselves are fine.
My 32nd Greenbelt by the way.
September 3rd, 2009 at 8:34 am
Disappointed by the number of folks complaining they wanted english translations of the readings. You mean you haven't memorised the bible? Or even brought one with you? Evangelical standards have clearly slipped from the days when i was one. ;)
September 3rd, 2009 at 10:39 am
I'm excited and encouraged at the healthy levels of debate happening here on the blog.
Long may it continue!
September 3rd, 2009 at 10:54 am
The Service this year has clearly prompted lots of feedback. Thank you for your comments. What we're going to do is to put 6/7 of your key, common questions and concerns to the team of curators who came up with the service and we'll invite them to respond to each. This might take a day or two – the curators are Greenbelt volunteers – so please bear with us.
In the meantime, we're going to close this post to further comments to avoid the job of responding becoming too overwhelming.